Relationship Marketing With Duane Zingale

Build Live Give. Mentoring With Paul Higgins

Paul Higgins sits down with Duane Zingale, marketing strategist and host of Marketing your Movement Podcast.

He shares with us how he helps coaches and consultants get more leads and generate sales through his own framework.

Welcome to the Build Live Give podcast. And we've got a fantastic guest today. Duane Zingale. Welcome Duane.


Hey Paul, it's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me on the Build Live Give podcast. I'm excited to create a connection and share some stories.


Yeah, well, I'm only returning the favour because I was on Marketing Your Movement Show, which is your podcast. So, it was great to appear there. And now it's great to have you back here and I always love to kick off with who do you love to work with and what problems you solve for them?


Yeah, I absolutely love working with what I call movement leaders. You probably call yourself a coach, a consultant, and somebody who's really out there to make an impact. And generally it's somebody who's building a personal brand. They're just showing up as a coach consultant to bring transformation to their community and what I call marketing your movement, per the name of the podcast. And what I love to help them do is take their tech world and integrate all these digital tools. They got maybe WordPress over here and a CRM email over here. And they just want to have those conversations and make meaningful moments in sales calls and with their clients. And we want to leverage these tools to create conversations in context of the problem, leveraging the automation. So, I help my clients build and automate their systems.


Well, surely don't coaches and consultants love doing all the tech side of their business?


Oh yeah. Every one of them. No, there's actually kind of a joke, there's two people in this world to make it super general. There's those who do, like me, love their toys and have 20 or 30 or 40 of them and have overwhelmed themselves chasing the shiny object. And then there's the opposite side of just we loathe toys. We still give people our phone number, because I don't want to bother with trying to figure out how to make an automation work and what is ConvertKit and WordPress and all these tools and why do I have to figure them out? And there's sort of those two spectrums in general. That's over simplifying it. But generally we need to come down to a simple set of toys that really do leverage the system so we have time and energy for what matters most, meaningful moments.


Yeah. And look, I've got to say I'm in the former camp. I love my tools. AppSumo is like one of my loves. And the great thing now is I work from home. My wife now works from home and when you get something physical, it's sort of noticeable. Comes through the door, your wife said, oh, what have you bought now, etcetera. Whereas I love without AppSumo you can just buy as many tech tools as you like, no one ever knows about it.


Indeed. I'm sure we could rack up the number of things we've bought and never used, just because it's so enticing. I wonder what this does?


No, it's market research. I'm always testing for my clients. That's how I justify it to myself. So, if you look at that from that point of view, what do you know about setting up these systems and automating that many don't?


Yeah. So, for me, what I love seeing come together is that these systems are set up to create conversation. We're in the space of marketing to stage a sales conversation, which is about building trust and relationship and a bond. And sometimes when we think of automation, we think of scale and I'm going to set it and forget it. And I have this mysterious item called passive income, which is maybe not as passive as all of us hope it would be, because there's still some work involved. But rather thinking of all of our marketing as staging that meaningful conversation, through creating a connection.


And if we think of our marketing as making the sales call fun, connected, and meaningful and with the right people and really what I call listening before they show up, they feel that connection rather than feeling like they got hooked and somebody dragged them into a call and they don't know if they really want to be there. That's the kind of juxtaposed experience of feeling the sleazy sales versus the, oh, I'm so excited to have this conversation. You really had me in that email and I felt such a deep connection with your story. And they're showing up as a leader really versus just another marketer.


Yeah. That's great. And I know you've got The LISTEN Framework, but what brought about that framework for you? Why is it so important to you?


Yeah. So, that framework kind of unearthed itself and unpacked itself in a moment when I was learning marketing myself and what really brought it about is I was in a position freelancing for the first time after 10 years in the nonprofit leadership development space and kind of figuring out this technical world. I had built websites, but my client had no systems and it was my first client. And so I kind of began building systems, oh, Zapier, let's automate this and just doing what I do. I love toys. I love building the system and bringing it together. I made customer service seamless, but still conversational. And then I read this book called Product Launch Formula and I thought, wow, this would be so cool. And my client had this brilliant idea for a membership site on training people how to use the equipment he was selling.


So, we took all his video content packaged together and offered a data product launch, and had 300 people jump in right away. First marketing I had ever done. And to me that was a big success. Five figures, proof of concept sold. Now I was sold on marketing. And so I continued that journey over the next two years of growing that membership. And I'd read Ryan Levesque's Ask, oh, let's try Quiz funnel. And I read Russell Brunson and okay, we'll do this Leap funnel. And then I decided to, in all my genius, to automate an automation into an automation and follow up and basically trap people in this never ending sales system, that was all passive. The dream. And to my client's request, we just automated as much as possible. And he didn't have to have any more phone calls.


Now, this is a group of guys who are rescuers working in fire departments and search and rescue teams. So, they're used to sales calls. So, one, it works because it's different. Two, it eventually stopped working. We hit this plateau and I asked my client, "What are people saying? Are you having conversations?" And he'd look at me dumbfounded, "You automated everything. It's amazing." And I'm like, "Well, it's amazing except it's not working." And he looked at me, "Well, what do you know? I've automated everything. I don't have to have a single conversation." And we finally got somebody to give us some feedback. And it was the worst feedback I had imagined, because we just heard the words, your marketing is sleazy. It's like going to a used cars dealership and being the one who put all the words together and all the automations. I never felt a darker moment because that went against everything in 10 years of ministry taught me, be a leader, create connection.


It's about feeling heard and seen. And the entire audience no longer felt any connection in this marketing. And that's when I realised I'm the automated a-hole. I became just another automated bro marketer chasing the sale, chasing the deal instead of building relationships and trust, because I got addicted to the system. And as I kind of dug into that, I realised I'd never again wanted to be an automated a-hole, but I really wanted to create connection. And as I began looking through what the principles of marketing were and what created an amazing sales conversation was this idea of creating empathy. And what's the most powerful element of building empathy, listening. It's not your ability to talk. Although, a lot of talking will happen. That sense of being able to listen and actually give a soundbite, "Hey, I heard this." In sales we know it as mirroring and we provide this mirroring experience.


And I wanted to bring that genius of good salesmanship to marketing and automation. And of course, when you hear LISTEN marketing and relationship based marketing, all of a sudden the words that objectify, words create. What we say causes us to act in a certain way. And so every marketer is saying, go hook your audience. Well, what are we going to start to do? We're going to hook people. Well, you got to go hunt them down as I said. And what do we start to do? Treat people like a hunting object and all of a sudden we've objectified our whole market. And it's about the almighty dollar, which don't take that the wrong way, I love me some money, but the money is a measurement of bringing true transformation to people's lives. And of course you can bring that by listening. So, that's kind of how that came about.


And of course, where that really matters to me as when I was six. I had this profound moment where my dad was suddenly gone and in prison and the mentor in my life was gone. I had a busy mom, she's now single for the next several years. And I felt just completely unseen and unheard. I had no one to go to with a six year old, a 10 year old challenge. And even as he returned, he had all his junk and I felt this void and desire for mentorship through my teenage years into my 20s. And it was this constant search for somebody who would just hear me out and not give another Bible band-aid cliche and nice Bible script like, "Hey, the Bible says." And I'm like, I know the Bible says, but I'm struggling. And a nice quote doesn't help.


And I actually discovered true help to lead me towards my desires, my dreams, and get me through my junk and mentorship from a marketer of all people, because they showed up online and they presented in such a way that wasn't marketing for marketing's sake. It was leadership. And that's what drew me into the marketing world. Why did [PLF 00:10:56]? I saw leadership leading me in a direction that led other people, my passion to an impactful change in their lives. And that's when I realised marketing and sales isn't sleazy. It's one of the most powerful experiences of mentorship and leadership we can ever give someone and receive, even before we hand over money. And then of course, handing over money per The LISTEN Framework is one of the most powerful things we can give to people, because of that transformational experience and buy-in, that comes from within.


Yeah. Well, what an incredible story. And I don't know if you're tingling, if you're watching this or you're listening, but if you've got that tingle, because I certainly have. Incredible story, Duane, and it really sets the scene now for the framework. So, everyone's sort of thinking, okay, that's great. It's LISTEN. Yes, I get it. Incredible story, but how do I bring it to life? So, what are the steps in bringing this LISTEN Framework to life to build those relationships in your marketing?


Yeah. And that's a great segue into what this is all about. First and foremost, LISTEN is a philosophy and a strategy. And then it has a gamut of different tactics that apply. But we also know it as the customer journey. And the first thing you want to do, like any good leader would do is go locate L for LISTEN, locate your audience where they're at and try to create conversations and share stories. You're meeting them where they're at with their felt needs. They're feeling like they're struggling with energy. You need to talk to them about energy. You know the answer, but sometimes that's the curse of knowledge. You know the answer, but you need to speak to them because they don't believe your answer. So, when you go locate them where they're at, being as in where they're hanging out online or in person when we can do that again.


So, if they're on Facebook, go show up on Facebook. And this is all grounded on doing the groundwork. Marketing is all built upon and predicated upon doing your prep work. So, this assumes you've done your avatar and audience research. You've done your offer studies. You've set up your brands. It's all built upon that. And when you show up consistently and lead on social media, in your email, or right now, I'm locating a new audience. You've invited me and I invited you on the podcast so we can reach new people who might jive with our chemistry and leadership style. And when we locate our audience, of course, we're going to make these introductions and they're going to go, man, this guy, Duane, he's really amazing, talking about myself at a meta level. But I'd really love to get to know more. And something I always like to refer back to is it's like walking around the mall when you were a young man, or at least for myself, I was a young man, but the ladies were around too.


We wander the halls of the churches. We go to Starbucks, we wander the malls because there's several places to go to look for some young striking ladies. And of course, what did I want to do? Well, I wanted to make some introductions while I was hanging out at church, while I was walking around the mall. And I would be sure to get their phone number so I could invite them to the party, not out on a date, but just a party. Let's experience ... I was a good Christian boy. So, of course I wanted to take it slow and build that relationship. So, it could go from introductions to relationships. And that's what you're doing at this moment. And you're going from, hey, I've met you where you're at. Let's take this conversation to my home base, to where I like to hang out.


I want to invite you to take this lead magnet. I want to offer you a simple solution today to solve that problem. And it's not the overwhelming entire dummies guide. You want to think about A to B. What simple solution can draw someone for ... because they want to be invited into that transformation where you share the secrets of how you moved forward and why your story is so striking and pulling that in. And that invitation is into a movement. It's into belonging and becoming a part of something. So, you can believe in becoming that transformed person, especially with talking a lot about coaches and consultants.


Yes, and Duane, just to get a little bit practical around lead magnets. I find I'm going to get honest with myself. I really struggle with what is the best lead magnet at the moment? We're doing a quiz, which I'm going to talk about it in the moment so everyone knows where to get that. Or it's a, I call it a pulse check, but what are some of the formats? Just give us a little bit more about what's really working at the moment from your experience.


Yeah. So, something that's really continually working and I always like to see them and show them what, not how. So, you're staying at this higher level of what. Well, what steps to take? So, a roadmap is something that I'm still seeing working. It has worked for a long time, because people just want to see a general. How do I start a podcast? What are all the steps entailing? And a quick checklist essentially. And those continue to do well. Can I get a checklist? A swipe files and templates. Something I can implement right away. And the reason these work is because people use them. And think about use cases. So, say a copywriter might offer a swipe file. If you're selling something and a tool is going to be used, of course you want to show and demonstrate what that tool is going to do.


So, maybe a case study. It's a challenge because it's always contextual. What's best for a SaaS marketer is going to be to demonstrate. What's best for a consultant might be to show the process they're going to go through. What I give is simply my manifesto. Listening is important to me, get the Listen manifesto and how I do marketing, because I want people to kind of come in and go, yeah, I want to do that kind of marketing too. So, a manifesto is a great way. You mentioned quiz. Now, that's kind of what I like to do as a second option to bring people in, because the S in LISTEN is survey. And so you can pull people in with these PDFs or even one-way people ... I don't personally like it, because I don't want to manage a Facebook group, but I've experienced giving my email in a Facebook group.


And that is a community that you're building a community, you're leveraging content. You can draw them in to get that exchange because you're creating a format where you're building relationships through email, through a Facebook group. I, to this day, still love PDFs in some format that are three to seven pages, practical and actionable. Remember actionable, give somebody something to do, not everything to do, but something. Solve one problem.


Yeah. Brilliant. And I know that we've been using, you spoke about Ryan Levesque before and the ask method. So, we've been using a version of that on LinkedIn. It's been going well, where you effectively, 15 minutes, you ask certain questions, really understand exactly, more of the pain points, the frustrations to really understand your audience. And we found that's working really well on LinkedIn, because you then all of the information that's gained. So, I'm doing it on, had to sell to B2B at the moment. Then I can share those results with people. And then what we also do is do a LinkedIn profile review for them as well. So, they get something for their input and what they've done. So, that's working really well. So, great. So, we've got L-I-S so far, so what's the next one? T.


Yeah. So, T, you're all in already alluding to the way you do it, but T is for teach. This is about demonstrating your expertise. And of course you now have the context of that survey and you can take that survey and go, okay, well, we have group one group two and group three. Group one is at this stage of sales. So, I'm going to approach them this way. So, one, you can invite the right segment of your audience to a webinar, or in your case, a profile review. You're showing and demonstrating that expertise and giving some actionable teaching points. So, it's a little moving from what to some of the how. Just a taste of moving, because people build that trust. They've just spent, if they're in a webinar, probably an hour with you, they get the chance to ask you some questions and then you can call the next step forward, which is to empower people for the purchase.


The E in LISTEN is empower. And I really like to use this because it reframes something all of us who've ever had to sell something struggled with at one point or another, that guilt or shame, or feeling it in many ways of, oh, I just, I hate to sell people. And if you're selling sleazy, yeah, it's a problem. But if you're not, and you're truly in it for bringing transformation, solving a problem. It is your obligation to bring this to somebody because it's going to empower them to move forward where they've been stuck, to get that juxtaposed position where they don't know what to do, or they need clarity, or they need your consulting help, or they need your deliverable because they just don't have enough time. They're coming to purchase. And they got the trust, bringing that empowering aspect.


And I always like to take this back to my ministry days, I used to go to Nepal and do a leadership development course. And for a whole week, we'd do it for free. And what did doing it for free bring? Well, people would come one day and not the next day. And then they come for a half a day and they'd lose their materials. So, we made a change after the first time doing it for free, because this is a five day experience. We charged $10. Now, in Nepal, $10 is not small, but it's still not that much. And the experience was unbelievable. Seeing how much ownership they took of that leadership development experience. They were empowered to own that transformation, because no matter what any of us do, I deliver websites. Guess what? If you don't show up and work with me, you don't get a very good website.


If I work with you on your content, you still have to show up, because you are the brand. You're showing up. If you're working with someone on sales, they have to show up and do the work. No matter how much is done for you, you're still collaborating, because it's your business we're working on. And if you're empowered by exchanging profit you've earned, in this instance where we're talking about people earning profit. When you give that up, you suddenly feel, oh, I better take advantage of this. And some people need more charge. And this is where I often say charge more, because if it's not enough, I can write that off. I didn't take it. I know I should've, but I was in the middle of something else and I made a hasty decision. And so it's just a few thousand dollars.


Some people need to be charged $100,000 for them to feel the weight of moving forward. Because you care about the transformation and moving into the end. You care about nurturing them towards that success, because that's your case study. And that nurturing moment of drawing them through the transformation, brings them to a place where when they've experienced it and they're going, wow, my health has changed. Wow, my income has changed. Whatever you're selling, they're now going to be your raving fans, your brand ambassadors. And even more so, what I love to say and bring to the table is we have to talk about scaling our business, but let's multiply our business with people. Who've experienced the transformation of our process and empower them with the ability to build a business off of that. And that's where these certification programmes come in. And they're brilliant because they multiply a movement.


And that's where the whole Marketing your Movement idea came from. It was like, oh, when you have success and people experience that transformation, they become, some of them, who move through their mess, feel a deep sense of, I've got to bring this to the world. And now they want to listen to people's stories, because they've been through it too. And they can share and hear back and near with experience and understanding and empathy like somebody who hasn't been through it. And that goes full circle and more people can start listening and it grows and it grows and it grows through multiplication. So, while some aspects, phone calls, time one-on-one cannot scale. Our time is limited. We can only scale our time so far, and none of us want to work 24/7, but we can scale by empowering other people with the message.


Brilliant. There we go. So, The LISTEN Framework, so we'll have that fully transcribed in the show notes. So, some of you would have been writing it down, the ones that aren't, it is there, and it's a great framework. So, it's locate, invite, survey, teach, empower and nurture is the quick summary. So, before we go into the live section, I'd like to talk to you about our pulse check. So, it's a quiz. It's nine questions, but it's just not nine questions that you know. It's actually the really key questions to building a sales system to get your next $1 million in revenue. So, it'll take you three minutes, but the questions have taken me 28 years to come up with.


And at the end of that, you'll get the opportunity to walk through a plan with me. So, it's not a sales call, but it's a plan to help you. So, all you have to do is go to Or if you go to the homepage of Paul Higgins Mentoring, it'll be right there above the fold. So, that's the pulse, it's a great example, I think, of really helping you understand exactly where your business is and whether you've got the right systems. So, the next section is the Live section, Duane. So, what are some daily habits that help you be successful?


Yeah. For me, this entirely begins in the morning and I'm sure you hear that often, but I start in silence. I love to just jump in. Yes, I have that silence with my coffee, but in that silence, I've grown to 30, 40, sometimes 60 minutes and not touching a phone, not touching a digital device. Actually I leave my phone in the office at this point. And that habit of remaining removed from the tech world, because I live on technology sometimes 12 hours a day, has really given me space emotionally, mentally. It gives me capacity for stressful days when I open my email and there's this stressful time. And I was like, okay, I'm ready. I've taken time to breathe and meditate and silently pray and really just receive. I really like to sit in receive mode. And that kind of comes from my Christian days where it's just like, okay, I'm in a posture of receiving something from another place, whether you call it divine, no matter where your faith is, that posture is wonderful.


That's probably one of the most striking habits. The other one that everybody I'm sure says is making space for exercise. And for me, that's just stretching. I've dealt with a lot of pains in my life. And just by taking five minutes to loosen my tight muscles and limber up, that's stretching. And for me, yoga really makes the difference between a day in pain, which we all know how much pain ruins our ability to focus and get things done versus a day just feeling good and limber. It makes a world of a difference.


Brilliant. Well, the next section's the Give section. I know this is something you've been doing all of your life, but in particular, at the moment, what's a charity or community that you're passionate about and why?


Yeah. So, at the moment I am currently giving, actually, if you see the video, it says Redding Trail Alliance on my shirt and I'm giving to our local Trail Alliance. And one might stop and think, well, that's funny of a ministry background and I give to plenty of ministries too, but this one excites me, because of the way it impacts our younger youth in town, but also creates a community. I talk about a movement, and some places I like to belong and congregate are my friends are bikers and I see the way it gives young people something to do.


But not only that, I see the way this Trail Alliance has impacted our economy. We're in a smaller city. It's not large. There's not a lot of money, but it's drawing in a whole crowd of tourists and passionate bikers and community. And I really love giving to that charity, because it's about buying into my city as a whole. And it really has given me, having moved here two years ago, an attachment to a city where I had no attachment before. And of course, what we know is when we give to something, it creates a bond that wasn't there before.


Yeah. Well said. And just for people, different countries bikers mean different things. So, here in Australia, biker means someone that's got a motorbike, whereas biker, you're referring to is riding a bicycle on a track, a path, a trail, a dirt track. So, that's fantastic. And thanks for that. And thanks for all the time and effort you put into the ministry. I know you've got deep background there. Like you mentioned the example of Nepal before, but many people talk about giving. There's few that do it as well as you. So, well done. So, the last section is a rapid fire section and it is that we need to short quick answers. As I like to say in Australia, it's a sip of beer, not a glass of beer. So, the first one is, and this one might be really hard for you to answer, but what is your favourite piece of tech that is essential to running your business?


Yeah, it's in one part really hard, but one part really, really quite simple. I couldn't run my business without ConvertKit. It's the email automation software that I use that helps me stay in touch, build the list. I'm inviting people into a movement. I could do without social media. I could do it without a website, but without ConvertKit, it's essential.


Brilliant. And the next one is what is your best sales clip?


What I love to say, and my mentor taught me, is it's not about closing the deal. It's about opening a new relationship. And think about that empowering moment when you're offering a transformation that you're beginning a new relationship and it reframes every sale you will ever have.


Great. And for you, how do you look for people that can help you build your business?


Yeah. And so the mentor who told me that quote, his name is Mike Kim, and he has a mastermind group. And Mike Kim is all about the personal brand. He's got the You Are the Brand book coming out. And really that showing up in an authentic relational way is what gave me the tools to do what I do.


Brilliant. The last question is what piece of advice you want to leave us with?


Yeah, I would say, think about everything you're doing is marketing your business, building relationships and being a leader. Don't think of it as a marketing activity, but leading people towards transformation one relationship at a time.


Brilliant. Excellent. And look, you can find everything about Duane at Obviously we're going to have the links there. Also that LISTEN Framework, which is so powerful. You can go to, which is a specific URL to get that. But Duane, it's been wonderful having you on here. Also, Marketing Your Movement is a podcast that Duane's got. You can go and listen to the episode that Duane and I had, which was a lot of fun. But yeah, thanks for being such a giving person. Thanks for articulating what sometimes automation, when I first came across and I thought, all he's going to talk is automation. I love the way that you actually humanise. And it is about that marketing relationship just made a little easier by the automation, but ultimately it is human to human. So, thanks for being a great human yourself. And I really enjoyed the conversation today.


Yeah, it was a blast. Thank you so much for having me, Paul.


My pleasure. Thanks, Duane, bye. Welcome to the Build Live Give podcast. If you're a first time listener, I hope you thoroughly enjoy it. And if you do, please subscribe. If you're a long-term listener, I really appreciate it, and it means the world to me. And you can always reach out to me and ask me any questions at any time. You can take notes and there's plenty of notes. And there's a really great framework to take notes on today, but it will be transcribed as well. So, you can get the full transcription of today's recording. If you're walking, riding a bike, whatever you're doing. So, today's guest gave a lot. So, he gave a lot through the ministry. So, he went to countries, including Nepal, which he talks about and gave a lot. And then he started through the ministry doing digital marketing, and then he went into automation and he did it so well that he completely removed someone from the business, and in particular, the relationship in the business, and that then backfired.


He was aghast when he was told that he was salesy, sleazy to the point. So, then he came up with a framework and it's called The LISTEN Framework. And that's what he helps coaches and consultants now to have relationship based marketing. A lot of people talk about it. Our guest today actually gives you a framework. So, first, what are you going to get? And why LISTEN? First is you'll get that framework. The second thing is you'll actually get the story as to why, and that really shows you how important the story is to set for your framework. And then the third thing is he does talk about automation and when not to over automate. So, they give you the framework at the end, which is great. So, what I'll do now is hand you over to Duane Zingale from

So, I really enjoyed that conversation with Duane and his personal stories about why he brought The LISTEN Framework to market was really powerful. I hope you got those tingles as I did. So, you can get The LISTEN Framework at You can also go and see my pulse, which I know that was his lead or the lead component, the lead magnet component. You can go and see mine at Please take action to build, live and give.


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About Duane Zingale

When Duane Zingale is not lost in a Lego Fairytale with his two amazing daughters, He is likely to be found geeking out on crafting relationship-based marketing ecosystems with his LISTEN Framework. And it’s not just about building a funnel for the sake of it.

Duane is emphatic about creating a connection through digital empathy…
… he is a Marketing Connection Consultant & Founder of the digital marketing group Legacy Catalyst… This guy loves tech so that you and I don’t have to!

His Mission with Legacy Catalyst is to get behind more than just a business… but to champion movements that will change the world one life at a time leaving a lasting Legacy. He likes to say when you leave your digital footprint today you start leaving your legacy for tomorrow.

And that’s why he believes starting a movement is the most powerful way to market and monetize your personal brand! That’s why he launched the “Marketing Your Movement™ Show“ To help personal brands such as coaches & consultants lead a transformational community and earn a return on their influence.

Duane helps his clients leverage automated marketing systems to create conversations in context …. Using his LISTEN Framework™ to build a relationship with potential clients through their customer journey.




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